Mystery axle noise

[Michael Mayben]

This is the axle bearing bore in the housing showing how it's been previously repaired inna really nice manner! Took a bigazz lathe to spin that housing for machining!

[Michael Mayben]

The DRIVER SIDE of a tapered D44 axle contains the "adjusting" component for proper axle bearing setup. The shims are swapped around until proper endplay is achieved, this takes a while to accomplish, this is all part of periodic maintenance on that type axle.

Axle bearing adjustment is done AFTER the differential is set up in the pumpkin. I use a dial indicator for doing this, but it can also be down with feeler gauges and eyeball if needed. Dial indicator setups are REAL CHEEP at Harbor Freight. And if I drop one and smack it, toss it away and get another one!

[Michael Mayben]

Here is a replacement key installed on the CLEANED and lapped axle taper. This one shows to be heavily greased so I can pull it off with my hands, this was a "trial fit" deal I had going on.

Once you do the final install, both the axle and hub tapers are cleaned with carb cleaner and dried. Then the shaft is treated with Loctite Green and the hub final torqued in place. It will NEVER slip/shear again!

Any and all the above can be contributing to your noise issue.

[Mastiff]

Thanks for the help. It looks like some of the pics didn't come through though?

[Greg R]

The noise appears in coast while in neutral. What's it like when in gear and in coast? Going from easy to hard, I'd check u-joints, wheel bearings, and then gears. If you hadn't serviced the wheel ends, then now is the time to get it done.

That will tend to be kinda harsh on conventional U-joints, I don't care what the "common wisdom" in other forums thinks about that!

That'sa fact Jack!
I went from a D20 to a D18 in the 69 800 to take advantage of a Warn Overdrive deal, and the lower compound low the D18 has. It's 9 years later, and I've gone through 5 sets of u-joints. It don't matter the brand,(I've used the best), or the best grease,(Swepco 101), or by the book assemby; there are optimum angles that just can't be achieved with an offset transfer case and a centered diff. It's not the elevation, or the offset alone, it's the resultant compound angle at road speed that kills them.
I've got an offset diff project on the stands now that will go in the 'ol 69. Something to consider if your rig sees road time to the trail.

[Mastiff]

I'll keep the U-joint situation in mind. I just forked out for a beautiful new driveshaft to go with this conversion. Something needed to be done because the stock one was bottoming out. The angles look very benign compared to my K5 blazer with 4" lift. I have a CV joint on that one. Have you tried that?

Michael, I've noticed in a few threads that you don't seem to have all the auto-adjuster stuff on your D44 rear brakes. Is it just in the pics, or do you have it that way all the time? It is a ton of claptrap, so I'd be happy to get rid of it if people have determined it to be worthless. It doesn't seem to be auto adjusting for me yet.

[Robert Kenney]

The early 44 and 27 did not come equiped with auto adjusters. I have ben looking for the parts so I can add the feature to mine. Tired of adjusting my own damn self.

[Michael Mayben]

Edit: Lost I-net this morning for a few hours, so this edit did not post.

Yes ...the "auto adjuster" stuff was being phased into the industry in the mid-60's! Some OEMs went years before incorporating since the brakes systems were long-term purchase "contract" deals.

And...so many times when we get into this old shit, the PO infection has already taken a toll!

The Lockheed pattern brakes used in some IH PickAlls and Scout 80/Scout 800 FRONT use a REALLY strange type of "self-adjuster", not at all like what is used in the far more common Bendix-pattern brake systems.

The rear brakes systems on the S80/S800 (if the larger option brakes from Bendix) can have auto-adjust hardware added if the adjuster cable is the correct length. That's just a matter of going thorough the hardware kits at a decent auto supply or friction shop and finding the right stuff. Once we know the source part number, we can post it for posterity! But that stuff has never been a priority for me, I prefer to do my own brake adjusting!

So...to reiterate...on MY '63 S80, I have the "option" 10" Lockheed brakes on the front (no self-adjusting feature OEM) onna D27 axle geared open diff 4.27. The rear axle is an offset D44 "option" axle for that model with a 4.27 Powerlok, tapered axle/hub version and Bendix pattern 12" brakes. The current transfer case is a D18. I'm currently prepping a T-18 four speed (four cylinder application) to swap in that had a D20 twin stick behind it (pullout from a Scout 800). But I will KEEP the D18 transfer case, the bull gear for the two cases I have fortunately are the SAME part number so that makes this simple!

There was no ONE brake system used on those or any other IH rig, the brake systems had to be spec'd by the dealer on each order. If the notation "prototype" appears on any lineset ticket, that means the vehicle was assembled according to a standardized build configuration, then the component callouts were added to the standard platform in detail. It does NOT mean anything special or "prototype" for an individual vehicle, that was just an ID term used for a basic assembly package. Kinda like the "doll-up" callout folks see, that was an internal control package that only meant something to the production folks.

Again...because of the individual uniqueness of the IH vehicle production system, this made it VERY difficult to deal with regarding the service parts business both for IH AND the aftermarket! And that is why there are BIG holes and discrepancies in the aftermarket parts business today for this IH stuff!

[Greg R]

Yes I have looked at a CV set up. The deal on an offset output and a centered diff, the drive line is running on 2 planes.
On one end of a CV set up, the u-joint is 0 to 1 degree angle and why some axles are tipped up for big differences in elevation from say a body lift. The CV end then can handle the acute angle.

On my stock set up, the difference in elevation from the output of the transfer case and the diff yoke gives me about a 1 1/2 degree of joint angle, BUT ADD to that the 7.5" difference in output to diff yoke from centerline and I end up with a compound angle of around 10 to 10 1/2 degrees. That ain't much, but optimum angles for long life are spec'd at no more than 5 to 8 degrees. O degrees ain't good either by the way, you need at least 1 1/2 degrees to keep the rollers in the trunnions turning. Running at 3,600 rpm or closer to 3,800 rpm drive shaft revs when doing 62 mph with 4.27 gears and 31" tires at those angles is not a formula for long life.

That's why I'm going to an offset diff. If it was JUST a trail rig that's trailered, I wouldn't bother.

[Mastiff]

I've got the 11"x1.75" brakes, which is causing me grief. I needed some of those pins that hold the shoes to the backing plate and a guy at the parts place checked about 50 applications and couldn't find anything with 1.75". Everything is 2" or more, unless it's a pinto and then it's too small. My drums are messed up and the cheapest I've found is about $90 each.

You mentioned that pulling the axles the wrong way can damage the drum. How does that happen and what is the effect? The situation with my drums is that they were binding on the studs and the stud holes were/are was bent out some. They never seated right until the lug nuts were torqued down and then the drums were nearly impossible to get off. I took a die grinder to the stud holes to loosen things up, but it's not a good solution. Both drums seem to be out of round or not centered with the axle. I had them turned, but they still do the thing where they don't brake uniformly during rotation. They stick at one point. I'm assuming this is the drum's fault and not that the axle itself is somehow off.

[1hc72]

id repalce the drums. since you have had the brakes turned and they are still sticking that means the drims are wasted/

[Mastiff]

Originally Posted by 1hc72

id repalce the drums. since you have had the brakes turned and they are still sticking that means the drims are wasted/

Yeah. Getting the brakes right is a priority. I haven't made peace with the $95 each yet though. I found a guy with a used set for $20 each, but then I don't know if they are definitely good. Plus I'll need to turn them too. No good options.

[1hc72]

i know the price huts, but 90bucks for knowin yoou can stop is a good thind

[Michael Mayben]

Originally Posted by Mastiff

I've got the 11"x1.75" brakes, which is causing me grief. I needed some of those pins that hold the shoes to the backing plate and a guy at the parts place checked about 50 applications and couldn't find anything with 1.75". Everything is 2" or more, unless it's a pinto and then it's too small. My drums are messed up and the cheapest I've found is about $90 each.

You mentioned that pulling the axles the wrong way can damage the drum. How does that happen and what is the effect? The situation with my drums is that they were binding on the studs and the stud holes were/are was bent out some. They never seated right until the lug nuts were torqued down and then the drums were nearly impossible to get off. I took a die grinder to the stud holes to loosen things up, but it's not a good solution. Both drums seem to be out of round or not centered with the axle. I had them turned, but they still do the thing where they don't brake uniformly during rotation. They stick at one point. I'm assuming this is the drum's fault and not that the axle itself is somehow off.

Dealing with the "tapered axle" D44 system is a whole other animal as compared with a similar maintenance procedure onna "flanged" drive axle version of a D44. Pretty much apples and oranges as far as brake systems and overall service procedure. A "flanged" D44 does NOT have to have the axle bearings packed and adjusted periodically...BIG difference!

Thanks Charles for correcting me about the "12" brake set"! I have a 12" Bendix system on the bench now I'm working over for a pickup so I get confused easily when writing! You are correct, your rear brake set is an 11" x 1-3/4" nominal Bendix system.

And...there were AT LEAST two different drums used with those 11" brakes, one has a reinforcing "rib" on the open end perimeter, the other does not. But the drums WILL interchange on the hubs even though one is slightly heavier than the other.

I had the same problem as you when I pulled the axle apart in those pictures that looks so ratty! And one drum would not turn, it was WAY beyond limits when my friction materials supplier checked it, they won't touch stuff like that.

Mike Ismail (Jeff's brother with IH Only in Lancaster, CA) was able to send me up ONE nice drum that happened to match the one good one I had perfectly. Those both went out for turning and the brake system you see in this pic is an "after" shot with used hardware and freshly built shoes with riveted premium lining material.

As for the "hold down nails" for this type brake shoe, if I can't buy new ones of the correct length, I use a 3" #8 box nail and cut to proper length. Then I "forge" the tip to the correct flat pattern and carefully finish grind the shape. Full service brake/suspension/alignment shops have these "nails" (and other brake hardware) in bulk in all lengths. And I DON'T mean places like "Midas"!

Of all places...I found a listing at Autozone for the "correct" drums several years back in the "Duralast" chinese casting stuff. But when I checked deep within the Autozone system, they had NO inventory in the US and did not plan to re-establish one. But a friend of mine in Kentucky DID find two of 'em locally, that is how I happened to check with A-zone, otherwise I'd never walk in one of those stores except for a fake chrome chain license plate frame.

Since then we've worked with the biggy in the brake systems industry today..."Centric"...regarding these drums and they have nothing and don't have plans to supply those parts, though they DO have alotta weird/obsolete inventory that we can use.

So if you can find the correct drums for around $100, JUMP on 'em! Some drums for some IH rigs are now going for well over $300 new. The brake set shown in this pic has NEW wheel cylinders that I obtain locally for under $15 each. NO WAY I'll rebuild wheel cylinders if I can buy 'em that cheep! That makes up for the unobtanium drums!

But have you had to pay the going rate to have nearly ANY current model vehicle with ABS serviced in the brake dept.??? Real lucky to get out of any shop with a full brake job for under $1200. All these dam disc rotors nowadays are throwaways that warp if ya look at 'em cross-eyed.

Go on to the next post regarding the "drum/hub" deal!

[Michael Mayben]

As for the tapered hub "removal" issue...

Here's a pic of the inside of the hub/drum combo as pulled.

At the point of assembly for the axles, the drums were "swedged" to the hubs in order to simplify the assembly process...and may have been a process to insure "concentricity" of the hub/drum but I really don't think that was a plan for insuring "quality"!

No doubt, when you pulled your drums, if you did NOT have to pull the hub with the special puller, then someone had already been in there and removed the assembly, then modded the drum/hub/studs so that the next time service was required, the drums could be removed. And that is EXACTLY what I do anytime I deal with these OEM items where the hub and drum are either grown together or have been PO-botched!

In most of these cases, the average joe can't see the parting line between the hub and drum, and assume they are one piece...not so!

IF ya use a BIGAZZ three jaw "claw" puller on the circumference of the drum, that will turn it inside out and destroy it's useability...AND warp the tapered hub also. That renders the entire assembly scrap! NO WAY to fix that short of replacing all parts.

The OTC puller pulls from the wheel studs and hub, has NO force applied to the drum. In some cases that puller brings the hub/drum right off. In others the hub MUST be spot heated and the puller pounded on also, it's MADE for that kind of treatment! It's NOT supposed to come off easy! That puller is rated at a pull-capacity of 10 tons.

The nut MUST be left on the axle thread loosely as a stopper, otherwise when that hub comes off, the whole rig will fly across the shop, could break yore leg if it's in the path!

Once the hub/drum is on the bench, you support EACH stud point from the rear using a pipe "support for an anvil. Then drive the stud out with a BIG hammer or use a press (preferred method). Then throw those studs away, do NOT attempt to re-use!

Then next you support the drum from the inside on either side of the hub using "angle" press plates or something VERY rigid. Then press the hub out of the center hole where it pilots on the hub.

Once the drum is removed, very lightly clean up the center hole and the stud holes so that it will still pilot over the hub but not have to be forced on. Then the drum can be turned or cleaned.

I then install NEW studs in the hub by either the press method or driving in with the big hammer while the hub is supported by a fixture of some sort. If ya don't support the hub, it WILL be bent/distorted, again rendering it unusable.

If ya do all this carefully, then 20K miles later when it's time to do another brake maintenance on the rear, the drums will come right off and leave the hubs in place. BUt...in order to service the axle bearings, the hubs MUST be removed.

The tapered hub system was used by nearly ALL axle manufacturers up into the 1970's. That is why that OTC puller was a standard item in a mechanic's arsenal.